Home › Forums › Workshop Techniques › Pros and Cons of the ER collet system This topic has 280 replies, 36 voices, and was last updated 27 September 2016 at 11:59 by Neil Wyatt. Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 281 total) 1 2 3 … 10 11 12 → Author Posts 4 September 2016 at 18:10 #254112 Nick HulmeParticipant @nickhulme30114 Posted by Nigel Bennett on 01/09/2016 17:28:23:

Found the video on you tube, It is called "Guhring Diver Tool smash". In it the guy from Guhring mentions that the ER system is at its best when the loads are Axial, not so good at Radial forces. Which is what I said. We as hobbyists don't need to consider such things There are better end mill holding systems than ER ,and there are FAR better workholding collet systems than ER . They are great for our needs, very versatile,I like them.

Sweden-based Sandvik has been a leader in the advanced cemented carbide tools space and will maintain the strategic focus on R&D. For the company, close customer collaboration and consistent increase in the investments have been the equally profitable strategies, so far. More importantly, the company has been investing efforts in leading towards a more sustainable future of the industry through the novel carbide recycling system.

Emphasizing development of customized carbide tools at competitive prices will remain one of the key strategies among participants in the global cutting tools landscape. Competitive Carbide Inc. (CCI in Ohio), recently acquired by the U.S. manufacturer and distributor of precision cutting tools, Arch Global Precision, is globally recognized for its range of customized milling tools, including endmills and reamers, solid-carbide mills, custom inserts and indexable precision tools. Arch will now have an extended portfolio of offerings, significantly supplementing its PCD tooling capabilities. CCI has also taken over a new state-of-the-art facility for custom tools manufacturing.

Microprocessor-based controller dedicated to a machine tool that permits the creation or modification of parts. Programmed numerical control activates the machine’s servos and spindle drives and controls the various machining operations. See DNC, direct numerical control; NC, numerical control.

Ok some Herbert saying it’s not good for radial loads but where is the proof ? Most modern VMC can put that much radial load on they can swipe vises off beds and snap 20mm cutters like carrots but the collet cannot handle a radial load. ?

Furthermore, the competitive price point of carbide cutting tools ensures they remain a preferred, cost-effective choice over others. Although the tips of carbide tools are manufactured of high-quality expensive carbide, the rest of the make of these tools, i.e. shank and body are generally made from high-quality yet cost-competitive hardened tool steel. With an excellent capability of improving the overall surface finish, carbide tipped tools have always been cited as compatible to high machining temperatures, thereby slashing down the overall machining cycle time.

Sandvik AB, the first company manufacturing rock tools with cemented carbide, announced the launch of a new group, PowerCarbide – highlighting its rock tool capabilities with cemented carbide. This new range is being claimed to be stronger, tougher, harder and a little more wear resistant. The overall drilling performance is expected to significantly high than ever, in addition to the substantially cost competitive pricing.

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I watched the video, not by Guhring, although one of their employees is being interviewed. It's interesting that the hydraulic chuck comes out far worse than the ER collet chuck. The 'high performance' chuck shown isn't specified as to type.

Grooves and spaces in the body of a tool that permit chip removal from, and cutting-fluid application to, the point of cut.

As far as I know Airbus & Boeing would not specify how a part was held for machining, why would they? The aerospace dwgs I work with may specify manufacturing 'best practice' but they don't go into minute detail.

Main body of a tool; the portion of a drill or similar end-held tool that fits into a collet, chuck or similar mounting device.

Towards the end of 2019, it is highly likely that the global sales of carbide cutting tools will account for the revenues exceeding US$ 5 billion, and in the next 10 years, surpassing US$ 10 billion. While a recent research foresees strong annual growth outlook for the revenues of global carbide tools market, a 6.4 percent increase has been envisaged this year, over 2018.

Surely the limitation will be the collet holder or machine bearings and as Neil has pointed out milling loads in the axial plane are far higher.

Thanks Jason for moving this to it's own thread. I have e-mailed Rego Fix Re, the ER collet system and what it's primary purpose was. as soon as I hear back it will be posted in this thread.

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John, If the company you mention does work for Airbus AND Boeing then there is NO WAY they will be using ER for workholding. AND I would willingly put money on it. [and money means a lot to me ]

Retooling, resharpening and reconditioning of existing carbide cutting tools seems an attractive area of investment, luring OEMs, which is anticipated to add to the cost-competitive, sustainable efforts of the carbide tools market as a whole.

Nick, Have to disagree there. They were originally designed for toolholding, more specifically Drills / reamers. I use them for a lot of workholding as do many others and they are great , but workholding is not what they were designed for. There are far better collets than ER for workholding. even as a milling chuck they are far from the best , they are super at taking axial loads, but not at their strongest with Radial loads. I like them but am not blind to their shortcomings.

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Neil, thats exactly the point I made. They are at their best when dealing with Axial loads [what they were designed for ] Guhring did a series of tests on the new "Diver " end mill and used various clamping methods and out of the 3 [Hydraulic , Shrink fit and ER] the ER was the least satisfactory. Of course they are fine for what we use them for but that doesn't take away from the fact that they were originally designed for Tool holding. and specifically,Drills and reamers. [axial loads ].

Turning machine capable of sawing, milling, grinding, gear-cutting, drilling, reaming, boring, threading, facing, chamfering, grooving, knurling, spinning, parting, necking, taper-cutting, and cam- and eccentric-cutting, as well as step- and straight-turning. Comes in a variety of forms, ranging from manual to semiautomatic to fully automatic, with major types being engine lathes, turning and contouring lathes, turret lathes and numerical-control lathes. The engine lathe consists of a headstock and spindle, tailstock, bed, carriage (complete with apron) and cross slides. Features include gear- (speed) and feed-selector levers, toolpost, compound rest, lead screw and reversing lead screw, threading dial and rapid-traverse lever. Special lathe types include through-the-spindle, camshaft and crankshaft, brake drum and rotor, spinning and gun-barrel machines. Toolroom and bench lathes are used for precision work; the former for tool-and-die work and similar tasks, the latter for small workpieces (instruments, watches), normally without a power feed. Models are typically designated according to their “swing,” or the largest-diameter workpiece that can be rotated; bed length, or the distance between centers; and horsepower generated. See turning machine.

In which case I think I need to go notify the CNC Co at the end of the road who work solely for Boeing and Airbus that despite spending 5M on new machinery over the last 3 years they have adopted the wrong tool holding and workholding systems

Tony, nobody said anything about a company SPECIFYING how a part was held., this debate is purely about the pros / cons of the ER system. I happen to think there is NO WAY a Production company would be using them for workholding and others say they do. There is no mention from anyone about any firm specifying how a part is held and . as you say, why would they ? that is left to the firm making the part [s]

Ability of the tool to withstand stresses that cause it to wear during cutting; an attribute linked to alloy composition, base material, thermal conditions, type of tooling and operation and other variables.

With a suitable lathe, if ER collets don't appeal, then the Burnerd Multisize system is a good alternative (says he who uses both systems, with the Multisize collets used solely for workholding).

John, You say that the ER collets are used in a production environment for Workholding ?? Thats where they are even LESS suited . [ Production workholding ] although, I will happily eat humble pie if i'm proved wrong.

Sorry Raymond but how do you work out that a collet tightened up onto work one side and two tapers the other side cannot accept radial loads ?

Nick, Have to disagree there. They were originally designed for toolholding, more specifically Drills / reamers. I use them for a lot of workholding as do many others and they are great , but workholding is not what they were designed for. There are far better collets than ER for workholding. even as a milling chuck they are far from the best , they are super at taking axial loads, but not at their strongest with Radial loads. I like them but am not blind to their shortcomings.

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Cutting tool material consisting of natural or synthetic diamond crystals bonded together under high pressure at elevated temperatures. PCD is available as a tip brazed to a carbide insert carrier. Used for machining nonferrous alloys and nonmetallic materials at high cutting speeds.

OH MY !!!, I made a mistake and the video is NOT by Guhring. but to get back to the jist of the debate, the lad does say what I already said, the ER is NOT at it's best with Radial loads. because it was originally designed for Axial loads. The high performance chuck is I think similar to the ones made by Schunk. and also Albrecht. There is another video about the HPC which I will try to locate to get the title. it also touches on the Schunk shrink fit and the Albrecht hydraulic

The new 3D system manufactured by the Illinois-based company has reportedly facilitated the prototype development and IMCO Carbide Tools is now relying on it for a more versatile, multiple-attributed measurement than ever. IMCO’s milling cutters with maximum 13 flutes are known to have above-average surface finish despite dealing with the most difficult-to-machine surface materials. The R&D center of IMCO is witnessing an effective prototype cutting tools measurement record by the EdgeMaster.

Besides automotive and transportation, carbide tool sales are majorly favored by the growth of heavy engineering industry, industrial production and fabrication. Driven prominently by the automotive and aerospace industries, the revenue contribution of automotive and transportation in the carbide cutting tools market will be more than 55 percent in the next few years.

With the most-anticipated entry of electric vehicles (EVs), hybrid electric vehicles (HEVs) and autonomous and self-driving vehicles to the mainstream in the near future, the subsequent reduction in the number of automotive components will possibly limit the demand for precision cutting tools. The exact ramifications of complete vehicle electrification on the growth of carbide tools market still remain to be unexplored. On the other side, heavy machinery and metal fabrication will also account for a combined share of more than a fourth of the global demand for carbide tools.

None that would cover the range of each ER collet., but for a specific Ø then some of the "C " Series or The B42 series all these are available in round hex and square [ and depending on which size ] can cater for larger Ø's than the ER system which max's out at 34 mm Ø also the mentioned series can all be bought as Blanks There are also a range from Micro centric [ I think thats the name ] that are also available in Round , Square and Hex I've yet to see an ER in square or Hex. I think the ER system is the jack of all trades but is the best at only one thing and that is Drilling / Reaming.for which it was originally designed for. But like I said I like them and use them a lot and i'm certainly not knocking them.

Carbide-tipped cutting tools, more popularly, carbide cutting tools, have been in use for a plethora of materials on engine lathes, CNC lathes, turret lathes, vertical turret lathes and chuckers. While excellent wear resistance of carbide tools manifests their enduring operational life, it also positions them superior to other counterparts when it comes to surviving longer production runs. Research has proven time and again that carbide tools are highly efficient in comparison with other solid cutting tools and high speed steel (HSS) tools.

I know for a fact you can but CNC 4th axis with ER nose fittings and these cost plus 5K. So who would bother to manufacture these at that price if they were inferior ?

Increasing incorporation of additive printing technology in manufacturing and measurement of precision carbide tools will ensure seamless flow of work right from manufacturing stages, through the value chain. The U.S. manufacturing giant specializing in engineering high-performance cutting tools,

Machining operation in which metal or other material is removed by applying power to a rotating cutter. In vertical milling, the cutting tool is mounted vertically on the spindle. In horizontal milling, the cutting tool is mounted horizontally, either directly on the spindle or on an arbor. Horizontal milling is further broken down into conventional milling, where the cutter rotates opposite the direction of feed, or “up” into the workpiece; and climb milling, where the cutter rotates in the direction of feed, or “down” into the workpiece. Milling operations include plane or surface milling, endmilling, facemilling, angle milling, form milling and profiling.

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A majority of the opportunities for carbide tools manufacturers lie in lathe machines or automatic machines. Increasing preference of end users for machine-based configuration of carbide cutting tools is more likely to supress the applicability of tools with hand-based configuration, as the former supports convenient operation and handling demands, promotes high-speed compatibility and offers extraordinary proficiency.

More than the efficient 3D measurement of carbide cutting tools, the company values the user-friendly controls on the EdgeMaster. The measurements are leading to the robust growth in productivity of the company and an excellent measurement data for future reference.

John, I didn't work anything out. I can only go by the Guhring tests [ unless the world class company that is Guhring got it wrong ] The video on you tube provided the evidence. So its not a case of "no fact " .Just type in Guhring Diver end mill into you tube and its in one of the videos by Guhring. And I did not say that they couldn't accept Radial loads, only that the system is not at is strongest with such loads. And it is a fact that the ER system is bettered by hydraulic or shrink fit. Any heavy milling with end mills that iv'e seen are all shrink fit or Hydraulic.

Ultraprecision processing is gaining traction across industries, as industries take efforts to maintain the improved product quality, safety and stability. Moreover, the paradigm shift to light weight and more compact products and components is translating into growing demand for carbide cutting tools that have a smaller diameter. Micro-precision machining that has emerged imperative in next-generation technological platforms such as Internet of Things (IoT), connected technologies, wearables and dyes for werables’ sensors, are highly likely to boost requirement of small-diameter endmills, particularly for cutting of dyes, majorly in aerospace and medical applications.

John, If the company you mention does work for Airbus AND Boeing then there is NO WAY they will be using ER for workholding. AND I would willingly put money on it. [and money means a lot to me ]

Diesel Renishaw touch probe bits Filament Dryers Lathe vibration in workshop Burdett 70 Mk2 Surface Grinder Zeamons Orrery brushless DC motor for mini lathe Allchin Crown Stay Creworks Chinese Mini Lathe – interesting Jekyll’s “Pendulous” Engine c 1870

I did that and the video didn't have any commentary, just video of the end mill in action. Nor did it mention collets of any sort?

Nick, Have to disagree there. They were originally designed for toolholding, more specifically Drills / reamers. I use them for a lot of workholding as do many others and they are great , but workholding is not what they were designed for. There are far better collets than ER for workholding. even as a milling chuck they are far from the best , they are super at taking axial loads, but not at their strongest with Radial loads. I like them but am not blind to their shortcomings

IMCO Carbide Tool, recently announced the replacement of an old surface measurement system that measures edges of drills, mills, inserts and several other round cutting tools irrespective of their material, type, size and surface finish. The company is now using Alicona Corp’s EdgeMaster optical 3D measuring system.

Drills and mills are emerging highly lucrative in the carbide tools market. However, carbide drills will continue to hold an edge over carbide mills. While former continue to gain ground in automotive applications – prominently related to engines, the latter will particularly will adoption for applications in fabrication. Significantly billowing consumption of carbide burs are key boosters to their high applicability in thermal deburring applications, whereas tipped reamers will also remain a significantly preferred type of carbide tools in the global market.

Taking part of a statement out of context and calling it "tosh" isn't really helpful. ER collets were designed for toolholding, and workholding is only a by-product that happens to suit our needs. If you read back in EIM in 2003, you will find that I described how to make an ER32 collet for the Myford lathe, so I can hardly be accused of preaching Thou Shalt Not Use ER collets for other purposes!

Sharvari Rale is an experienced market research writer and has written extensively on the industrial automation and equipment, and automotive domains. At Future Market Insights (FMI), she works closely with the automotive, and industrial automation and equipment research teams to serve the needs of clients from across the globe. The information presented here is taken from FMI’s report on Carbide Tools Market.

The global vehicle parc is thriving steadily, of which the Asia-Oceania-Middle East cluster currently accounts for over 35 percent share. While the share of the Americas, i.e. just-under a third of the total automotive parc, also reflects significant opportunities for carbide tools manufacturers, that of the former will remain the most prominent factor boosting carbide tools demand within the concerned regions.

I'm certainly not knocking them as I use them a lot I think they are great I know a lot of cnc lathes with live tooling use them but for rigidity ,hydraulic or shrink fit is better. and before anyone starts I know we as hobbyists dont need to bother about such things. I'm only reiterating the fact that A] They were designed first and foremost as Toolholders and B] They are at their best Drilling / Reaming.