You’re probably thinking “tapered cuts are short, so they must not require a ton of styling work or maintenance”. Well, that’s not entirely true. Yes, there’s less hair to style and wash, but the overall maintenance costs can be a lot more than expected. Tapered cuts grow extremely fast, which means you’ll be spending money on shape-ups and haircuts. Depending on the length of your sides and back as well as how long you’re willing to go between haircuts, you should plan to get a haircut and shape-up twice per month. Since the top of a tapered cut is long, a haircut maybe required every few weeks depending on your desired length. If you want longer curls on the sides and back, you can expect matted curls every morning which means additional styling time to refresh.

My experience suggests that there isn’t much difference in cutting power/force requirements for climb and convectional milling. The force measurement results shown below suggest that climb milling required only slightly less force (and machine deflection) than conventional. Comparing cutting current draw (thus cutting power and force) with your VFD should enable you to easily compare both approaches. 16 kRPM.jpg1280×720 172 KB 27 kRPM.jpg1280×720 170 KB

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My personal take on all of this, is that overall climb wins on the Shapeoko, and that the guideline to use climb for roughing and conventional for finishing passes (for dimensional accuracy) is simple and good for 90% of cases ? (which would leave many users in the dirt, since as far as I remember CC still only generates conventional cuts ?)

climb causing “negative rake/cutting” at high stepovers : why ? The following guideline went completely over my head: – When cutting half the cutter diameter or less, you should definitely climb mill (assuming your machine has low or no backlash and it is safe to do so!). – Up to 3/4 of the cutter diameter, it doesn’t matter which way you cut. – When cutting from 3/4 to 1x the cutter diameter, you should prefer conventional milling.

heat: conventional produces more heat since by definition at the very beginning of the chip formation (thin-to-thick) the cutting edge is rubbing before it starts cutting/biting into the material. This part makes sense, but I do not understand the statement about climb that “chip width starts from maximum and decreases so heat generated will more likely transfer to the chip”. Why ?

@cgallery: understood. Deflection is the weak point of climb, but if used only for roughing, that is not going to have any impact in the end then. Indeed in plastics it probably does not matter much.

power corresponds to the backlash mention. climb is aiding the steppers and spindle efforts. going with the wind rather than against. using a household vacuum can show this in practice. pushing forward (climb vacuuming lol) can take noticeably less effort than pulling (conventional vacuuming lol).

@luc.onthego: not sure why the first pass in a pocket should be done using conventional ? the chips getting pushed to the back of the cut is for climb, not conventional ? If we narrow it down to “climb for roughing and conventional for finishing”, then with almost any CAD suite it is easy to do (since there will be a need for two separate toolpaths anyway). And at least with VCarve, there is a very nice option to reverse direction for the last pass in profile cuts, so a single toolpath could even do the trick. But not in CC, given that there is no option to select climb vs conventional…

@luc.onthego: not sure why the first pass in a pocket should be done using conventional ? the chips getting pushed to the back of the cut is for climb, not conventional ? If we narrow it down to “climb for roughing and conventional for finishing”, then with almost any CAD suite it is easy to do (since there will be a need for two separate toolpaths anyway).

I do machining at my day job. I always climb on a CNC. If I need a really nice finishing pass that will give a good finish and remove any burrs, I leave about 0.010" of material and will reverse my cut for a conventional pass. If you’ve ever run a manual mill and tried to climb mill, you will know it. The cutter will grab the material, and walk its way down your cut…not in a good way either. You have to have the control and rigidity to climb mill like on a CNC.

Feb 1, 2008 — Rockwell hardness testers · Andre' B 01:37 PM 02-01-2008. Tool steels up to 60 ...

It also doesn’t help that a lot of this is still locked up in proprietary, closed source tools which are not openly documented, nor readily available.

This is my understanding too. I just checked a pocket and profile toolpath generated in CC and the pocket is indeed clockwise/conventional, while a outer profile is counterclockwise, which would make it conventional too if no material was present on the outside (but most of the time profile cut = slotting cut, so it’s both climb and conventional at the same time) I can understand why Carbide developers would remove this cut direction parameter (and make conventional the default) to make CC even more accessible to new users, but having the option to override the default behavior would be good. And adding ramping would be a huge step too.

Tapered cuts not only offer flexible styling, but also quick overall styling time. Styling time is a breeze because there’s only half a head of curls to style. The actual process to wash, deep condition, and detangle are simplified with only having to care for the top of your hair. This can be real motivation to try new hairstyles and keep it fresh. It’s always a positive when you save time and can be cute.

downward/upward force on the stock: conventional is supposed to create an “upward force” pulling stock from the bed, requiring stiffer workholding, while climb would push it down. This makes no sense to me, for a vertical endmill going through stock, I must be missing something…

Depth of cut is the amount of material removed per pass, and can vary based on tool/work material but should generally not cause chatter.

At least with wood, climb milling would seem less likely to cause tear-out because thinner (rather than thicker) cuts occur when the cutter exits the workpiece. The thicker cuts occur as the cutter enters the workpiece, so the cutter would be less likely to rub on (and heat up) the workpiece before “taking a bite” of it. Climb milling chips are propelled behind the cutter’s advance so they’re easier to clear and less likely to interfere with the advancing cut and generate additional heat.

deflection climb mention - picture it more like bouncing. if it is kicking out, then it is also going to swing back inward (inside the cut)

Don’t overthink it (says the guy who likes to split hairs on these topics…), many shapeoko users just ignore these debates and happily cut wonderful projects using default settings. It’s just rewarding (for me) to know how/why thinks work, but far from necessary.

The tapered cut is a beautiful hairstyle offering flexible styling options, shorter styling time, and decrease product usage. At the same time, the haircut comes with some additional maintenance costs and no bad hair days. Whatever your decision is, remember that your hairstyle should make you feel confident and beautiful. A tapered cut may be the perfect cut to do just that.

finish quality picture the same scenario in a pocket. climb cut puts chips behind while cruising into a corner. much easier to fathom why this is a good idea. ideally yes the chips fly off the cutter, but some tend to stick or barely move out of the way - it is best to have them fling generally behind than in front. time and time again you see how crucial chip evacuation is to good toolpaths or finish. chips out of the path way is always best

In my experience, and on our less than perfectly rigid machines, the primary difference between climb and normal cutting seems to be the deflection that occurs, and the ramifications to the size of the part.

The more I read, the more I feel I haven’t read enough/anything. I thought my computer science master’s was one of the tuff majors to master. I am wrong, and now, I feel too old for this.

The difficulty here is that CNC, unlike computer science, crosses over from the theoretical/digital realm over to the real world of machining, so is at the intersection/interface of a number of disciplines and concepts.

CNC’s need to cut in Climb mode (ALWAYS), because the motor’s are not strong enough (or get over worked) cutting conventional. See the helix and rotation of the cutter help pull it along (almost self feeding, so all the stepper motor does it slow it down. Meaning very little energy on the stepper motor in climb mode. Hope this helps

Aug 9, 2007 — The trick is slow rpm, plenty of coolant & more feed pressure than you use with steel. HSS bits will work fine. 1/2" bit I would use about 150/ ...

So Curl Friends, are you considering a tapered cut, comment below with your questions. If you have a tapered cut, what would you list as pro or con?

Hi Curl Friends! It’s no secret within the natural hair community that tapered haircuts are one of the most popular hairstyles. We’ve all crushed over popular tapered beauties like Tiffany Renee (@iamtiffamyrenee“>, Kendra Kenshay (@kendrakenshay“>, Dayna Bolden (@daynabolden“> and so many more. I have rocked a tapered cut for three years and love it. It’s by far my favorite natural hairstyle. The tapered cut offers naturalistas both pros and cons. If you’re considering trying a tapered cut or are on the fence, keep reading to find out everything you need to assist with your final decision.

https://www.cnccookbook.com/climb-milling-versus-conventional-milling/ https://www.datron.com/blog/climb-milling-vs-conventional-milling/ http://www.shapeoko.com/wiki/index.php/Climb_vs._Conventional_Milling www.harveytool.com/secure/Content/Documents/Tech_ConventionalMillingVsClimbMilling.pdf +multiple posts here on the forum.

The major advantage to having long hair is the ability to wear a hat, slick your hair back, or wear a high puff when bad hair days happen. With a tapered cut, there’s no such thing as a bad hair day. There’s no hair to put in a bun or slick back. Again, since the top is long, wearing a hat is nearly impossible. This means additional time to refresh curls every two or three days.

I’ve not noticed a substantial difference in the finish between climb and conventional. However, I work in a lot of plastics which may just not be ideal for judging cut quality.

and I must say I feel somewhat confused now by the contradictory statements, exceptions, dependencies to the specific material/cutting situations…so I wonder if it is possible to come up with a (simple) definitive guideline for when to use which.

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Not only will you be saving styling time, but you’ll conserve products too. Listen, I know we are all product junkies and a “dime sized” amount is a myth in the natural hair community (you know it’s true”>, but when you have a tapered cut, a “dime sized” amount is just enough. Products last a lot longer because there’s not much hair. When products last longer that means more money in your pocket. Who doesn’t love saving money?

For turning toolholders, as for indexable inserts, there is a similar ISO designation system. The system is designed so that each important feature and ...

The best thing about tapered haircuts is there’s no one size fits all. The tapered cut can be worn multiple ways. The cut itself can be customized to the individual’s face shape and liking. Some curl friends like completely shaved sides while others prefer a little texture and curl. The sides can be cut higher or lower around the temple/ears. Depending on the amount and length of hair, styling options can include twists, twist outs, flexi rods, wash and go, finger coils, braids, and much more. If you’re getting bored you can add design parts to spice it up, or even straighten your hair for a cute bob or pixie.

@WillAdams I don’t understand “It also doesn’t help that a lot of this is still locked up in proprietary, closed source tools which are not openly documented, nor readily available.” Got example(s)?

Autodesk Fusion 360, MasterCAM, EstlCAM, BobCAD/CAM — all are closed source, and none are documented in such a way that someone who doesn’t use said tools can take advantage of the algorithms — I think I’ve only found one opensource toolpath tool, and it works in Grasshopper in Rhino3D:

finish quality picture the same scenario in a pocket. climb cut puts chips behind while cruising into a corner. much easier to fathom why this is a good idea. ideally yes the chips fly off the cutter, but some tend to stick or barely move out of the way - it is best to have them fling generally behind than in front. time and time again you see how crucial chip evacuation is to good toolpaths or finish. chips out of the path way is always best

heat i have not read up on this much, but i’d picture it as such. conventional and climb experience the same arc of engagement by the cutter. conventional has X% arc amount of rub/heat, then has enough bite to create a chip. climb does not experience this X% arc since thick to thin. so the heat generated is likely less in climb and it also likely slightly wider chip by X% so that much more heat is pulled away. again, this is just my guess of such

If I get this, it would be ideal if the first pass in a pocket to be done using conventional as the chips would be sent behind and not get stuck in front of the endmill while it would be better for the following passes to be climb, and a final that final pass that is also conventional for a good finish. This is not something that is not easily be programmed in current software offerings where you choose the direction for the whole pocketing operation.

tool wear: stated to be lower with climb, with “tools lasting up to 50% longer”. I guess this is a corollary of heat and power being lower ?

thanks, interesting data. I have been busy and I am still nowhere near having my spindle/VFD up and running, but I will definitely do such a comparative test later.

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A grasshopper plugin for digital fabrication. Enables direct fabrication of geometry with 3D printers, CNC milling, Laser cutters, Robot arms and more. Also featuring 1:1 augmented reality toolpath...

Aug 7, 2024 — How hard is the steel? Not much short of carbide will drill hardened steel if its truly hard. Good Post.

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@themillertree : thanks for the feedback, therefore +1 point for the “climb for rough and maybe conventional for finishing”

National Pipe Thread (NPT) is a widely used standard for tapered pipe threads in the United States. These threads are commonly found in pipes, fittings, ...

I reread the comment from Paul and I realized that I had misread his post the first time around. VCarve does have the ability to change direction of the final pass for profile cuts only.